Following yesterday's first exclusive UKIP leadership contest interview, The Talking Clock is proud to continue assisting UKIP members in their decision - and inform the wider public about the characters involved in the race to lead Britain's fourth biggest party.
We invited all of the leadership hopefuls to spell out, through The Talking Clock, their vision for the party and where they stand on a number of issues of interest to our readership.
Today, we present for you, our EXCLUSIVE interview with Nigel Farage MEP.
Transcript:Note - in order to present a level playing field, this is a verbatim transcript. It has not been tidied to erase speech hesitations and is as accurate a record of every word as is possible.Why do you want to be leader of UKIP again?Well, I stood down a year ago and I made it clear that I wanted to have a proper crack at John Bercow – of course, what I didn’t know then was that Cameron was going to endorse him which rather spoilt that particular party.
Being leader of UKIP is a heck of a difficult thing to do. I took it over in 2006 when it was at a very low ebb indeed and we had to very slowly try and build the thing up from the bottom. We had to, generally, try and find some new people to take on administrative roles and whilst I think we did take the party forward we didn’t take it forward as far as I would have liked.
Everything takes time but you know now, we’ve had a General Election, despite the fact – you know, up fifty percent but it wasn’t brilliant – the party is united, it’s determined, we’ve just had a fantastic conference, it can see the opportunity and I want to take over the leadership of UKIP now and I want to do it completely differently to the way I did it last time.
I am not running to be a manager or a Managing Director as I was before. Before, it was like being the MD of a company. Every piece of paper from every department came across my desk. I won’t do any of that. I will not be running UKIP, I have no interest in running UKIP.
I want to lead UKIP. I want to give political leadership and I’m going to announce during the course of the hustings, in a few weeks time, a new structure with a Chief Executive at the top – somebody with a proven record of success in P.R. and marketing and business and somebody who is a dedicated UKIP-er and let’s have a Chief Executive who runs the party, accountable to the NEC on a once a month basis and leave me to do what I think I’m good at which is media, giving the right messages, and raising money.
So that leads me quite neatly into the next question which is what would you say are the main things that you personally offer to the party?To a lot of people, out there on Main Street, you know - when they hear the word UKIP, a lot of them associate it with me. Now you can say that’s a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view, but I do believe I’ve got that public recognition and the reason I’ve got it isn’t because I’ve appeared on television. The reason I’ve got it is because I’ve said things and I’ve couched things in a form of language that people understand and agree with and I think my asset, my biggest asset for the party is that I’m able – through the media – to reach millions of people who, if they’re not already voting UKIP will think about voting UKIP.
I’ve faced plenty of short pitched, hostile bowling over the years. I mean, having said that, you know, there is no room for complacency. I was a trader before I did this and the saying in the City ‘you’re only as good as your last trade’ is absolutely right and it’s the same with media. You know, anybody can go onto Question Time and bomb. So I don’t, because I’ve done lots of it and because in the main it’s gone quite well, don’t think that I turn up for these programmes with a totally blasĂ© attitude. Probably nobody works harder in preparing for these things than I do.
Bearing in mind that rather horrific ‘plane accident which I think is quite miraculous that you walked away from…Totally. Totally extraordinary…
How recovered from that experience are you to take on the workload?Mentally, I’m fine and that’s the most important thing. In fact in some ways, mentally, I’m probably fitter than I’ve been for ten years. I’ve just had three months off! I mean, albeit, some of it with a bit of pain but I’ve had three months off, I’ve lost a stone in weight, I’ve spent time at home, I’ve seen a bit more of my children, I’ve had time to think which is something that I, you know, I haven’t had much of over the last few years and no, I am fit.
I’m mentally fit. I feel well. The sternum, the lungs, the ribs – all of that stuff has mended. I have some trouble with the lower back and that means I can’t, physically, at this moment in time do some of the things I did before and I won’t, if I’m leader again be able to charge off round the country getting home at two and three in the morning, night after night – that won’t be possible.
But what UKIP needs is a leader, a political leader, who is in London. This is where the action is. You know, like it or not, this is where the media is. This is where you go out and reach the millions. So I will go out and travel round the regions and in the country but I will have to do it differently and I’ve got to start looking after myself a bit. I mean, I had a bit of a reputation all through my life for being a bit of a party animal and that of course, that’s entirely true! But I think firstly, you know, one gets a bit older and secondly, after an experience like this, I probably now go to bed at eleven o’clock rather than two o’clock. So, I can cope.
So, is the UKIP leadership election a matter solely for UKIP members or do you think that the leadership election would have interest in the wider electorate as well?I think it will have wider interest and I think that the media are likely to reflect upon that during the campaign. I don’t think this leadership election will be ignored by the newspapers and the BBC. I think people will look at the characters that are involved and will make comment so, yeah - this is not gonna be a purely in-house affair even though the voters will be purely in-house. I think we will see media comment as the campaign develops.
Have you been happy with the direction UKIP has been heading in and what do you think UKIP has done well so far?Oh, I think what we’ve done well so far is to establish the brand. That may sound like – believe you me, all through the nineties you know, you stood in elections for UKIP, ‘Who are you? Never heard of them!’. We’ve established the brand. We’ve established what we stand for – on the European question, or perhaps what we stand against, I mean, you know, one would like to turn it round a bit more to what we stand for. So that we’ve done. No question. We have been able to build a party with a network and a structure across the country - despite repeated attempts to sabotage us and bring us down - we’ve managed to do that.
What we haven’t yet done is we haven’t yet made the transfer to being seen to be relevant in different kinds of elections and we need to be seen to be relevant in domestic elections and one of the ways that I will try and turn that around is there’s been too little emphasis on local elections.
You know, UKIP-ers think ‘To hell with that! We’re gonna form the next Government.’ Actually, we’re not going to form any Government at all. We’re not going to win any seats in Westminster unless we start winning district and county council by-elections and seats. That is the way that you build up, that is the way that, at a local level, you began to be looked at as a possible winner and so that’s one of things that I will push very hard and when it comes to fighting elections, I will try and lead by example. I mean, I think the last four General Elections that UKIP have fought, I think I’ve been the lead candidate three times. So, you know, I believe in fighting, I believe in leading from the front and we’ve – as yet – we haven’t made ourselves properly relevant.
Now, we’ve got some good policies and I’m very happy with what we’ve developed on education and tax and various things like that but it’s one thing having policies on the website – it’s another communicating them out and getting millions to understand that’s what you stand for. So that is the next big challenge.
Going forwards, what changes – if any – would you like to see in the UKIP focus? We’ve covered some of those…Yes…
Anything else you would like to change, going forwards?I think we have to be positive and I think, I think that positivity is reflected partly on what we say but also in how we say it and I generally think that I have got a fairly upbeat, optimistic tone to life. I think we need to emphasise that we’re not ‘anti’ anything! We’re not anti-European people. We’re not anti-Europe. It’s this set of institutions. It’s this form of big government we’ve got here. I mean, you know, UKIP cannot be and must not be seen to be an obsessively anti-EU party.
As far as I’m concerned, the EU is part of the whole problem of the way in which we live our lives in this country and I think if we can communicate that, then I think what we can do is start to attract young people in real numbers to come to this party and one of the things that finally pushed me into saying ‘Right, I’m going to stand for this again’ was the number of young people I’ve met that say ‘Nigel, we love what you say, it’s great stuff, we watch you on YouTube,’ you know, ‘we’re gonna join the party.’ So if we can do that and develop a really big youth wing in this party, you’ll see a very different kind of UKIP in two or three years time and I think it’s doable.
I have got a question specifically related to that which is…Sorry, I’m running ahead!
No, fantastic, fine… which is what role does UKIP’s youth wing play in your vision for the party?Oh, vital. One of the things I’ll be announcing is part of the central management team – the new central management team of the party, under a Chief Executive – one very senior UKIP figure will be dedicated solely to working with Young Independence and youth development. And we’re going to get out round the schools and the sixth form colleges, we’re going to attempt to plan a really massive go at the Fresher’s Fairs next September and October – we’re going to do this seriously. I see this as being the key. You know - we have to grow, we have to do better at elections, we have to focus more on locals – all those things I’ve mentioned already. But the key into turning this into a positive, buzzy, forward looking movement is to get that youth wing going and I think the time is good.
What do you see local the UKIP branches could do differently and what are they doing well?You know, I mean, I’m the only candidate here that’s been in the party continuously since the start. Others have left and come back and various things like that. A lot of our best people are getting old. Certainly in the South East and South West which were the areas that we developed, strongly, early on. A lot of our best people are getting old and getting a bit tired.
So, you know, really the answer to this is very much linked into the previous question – we need some fresher and younger blood. I think in the main, the branches do a pretty good job. You know, I mean - some don’t - but in the main, the branches do a pretty good job, they find candidates, but again - one of the difficulties has been convincing the branches that local elections matter but again, even there, we’re beginning to win the argument.
So I don’t want to change the branch structures, I think the branch structures work but I think in the more developed parts of the country they now have county co-ordinators and those county co-ordinators sit on regional committees and I think we have a structure that actually works.
Okay, I’m going to move on to the next section because I don’t want to repeat what you’ve already covered so; polls show that the majority of the British people are, to some extent, unhappy with our relationship with the EU. If Parliament is supposed to represent the will of the people, how did we get here?Well I mean this, of course, is all to do with why I joined politics in the first place. I mean, I was sitting in a bar in… just off… just off Old Broad Street in the City in 1990 when it was announced that Britain had joined the Exchange Rate Mechanism. That was a Conservative Government. When I read my papers the next morning, I found that Labour and the Lib Dems supported it, too. That’s what got me into politics – the fact the entire political class were now agreeing on a whole host of things. That was twenty years ago! Now, we’ve got three Social Democrat parties. I mean, I’ve been saying it for years but I mean it, you can’t put a cigarette paper between them on most issues of policy or even conscience, so we have a political class and there is a massive disconnect – but not just on this question; it’s not just on Europe that there’s a massive disconnect, it’s there on a whole host of other issues too. So yeah, we have to break down the system, and… and obviously, you know, if electoral reform is one of the ways of doing it. Another way of doing it, of course, is that UKIP becomes so big and becomes such a threat that they’re forced into giving us a referendum on this.
And if we had that referendum, what would be the alternatives to the European Union project?I think we maybe need to be a little bit clearer about this. We need to be a little bit clearer that the free trade alternative is there, it’s on offer. You know, I remember with Kinnock shouting at me on the Today programme in 2001, John Humphrys said ‘Now come on Commissioner Kinnock, you know, if Britain left would there be a free trade deal?’. ‘Of course, yes’ he said.
So we need to emphasise that we’re not losing anything. So we need to emphasise that the alternatives are the trade deal with Europe but the other thing that we’ve got to do and I maybe not quite succeeded yet is to explain that in a global economy, we’re actually hampered by the Common Commercial Policy or Trade Policy and that it would open up so many other fresh opportunities around the world, so, again – again – again, it’s there, it’s in our manifesto, but I don’t think the general public yet really have quite understood this kind of positive global future that, that UKIP sees.
On that point, some detractors of UKIP do label the party as a “one trick pony” despite us having that very comprehensive manifesto at the last General Election. So, away from the EU, what would be the first thing not related to the EU to go into a manifesto that you…Well, that’s difficult to answer because what is there that isn’t in some way related to the EU? I mean, what is there? There’s virtually nothing is there, now? I mean, you know, this government’s even accepted foreign policy. We even accepted enhanced co-operation militarily with the Fren[ch]… – I mean, what is there that we can discuss?
No, I think the – I think the fundamental questions of border controls, of migration, of the balance of society – I think that has to be very near the top of our agenda and then I think – then I think the whole question of the size of the state. Now that, of course, breaks down into a whole host of complex issues but, I mean tax, clearly tax, clearly benefits, I mean if George Osborne does what he said on the news this morning, I’ll be thrilled but I, you know, I’ll believe it when I see it – so the whole question of the size of the state, so that, that, that operates at a macro level in terms of how much does government do and how much of our income does it take but it also, it also operates at a micro level of, you know, shouldn’t your local pub have the right to have a smoking room at the back? I mean, if that’s what you choose to do and choose to want to do, so for me, for me – the big one – without being specific, but the big general philosophy is that government is too big.
Some of the people who could support UKIP from what I’ve seen seem to have these constant themes on what they’re saying, so the next question is… does the West Lothian Question require an answer?Of course it does. Of course it does and ummm… I think the, the, the UK constitutional arrangement at the moment is, is a bit of a mess, I don’t think it was clearly thought through and I have deep sympathy with the view that the English are getting a rotten deal. I have deep sympathy with that. I do not want to see extreme English nationalism, but I do think there is a genuine desire for Englishness that is out there and I’m very much in favour of a federal UK - very much in favour of it.
I think it works on every level, you know, if Scotland, England and Wales have their own ability to run their own things and we do things at a national government level rather like the, rather like America does – I think that is the long term solution and I’m very much in favour of it and yes, I would like to see – you know – an English Parliament sitting in Westminster for a certain number of days every month dealing with English only issues and I think the way we sort of try and pour scorn on Englishness is why we’ve got this rebellion – and, it’s a very English rebellion but you know, on St. George’s Day now, you see the flag everywhere. Well, twenty years ago, you didn’t so there is something going on there and I feel a part of that and I have a feeling, I have a feeling that we can get to a situation where the English, Welsh and Scots and Northern Irish all get on really rather better perhaps than we are at the moment.
Is the UK a police state?Funnily enough, I was chatting with a policeman coming up on the train this morning about CCTV cameras ‘cos he collared me!
Errr… I think, well… look, we’re headed rapidly in the wrong direction. Is it a police state yet? That depends how you define a police state. We’re probably not there yet and I think if I stood up on a
Ques… I mean, I tell you what, be very interesting to get the response from the other candidates. Possibly one or two of the others will say ‘yes it is’ but I promise you, that if you stood up on
Question Time and said ‘this country is a police state’, you would earn nothing but derision for yourself and UKIP because the public aren’t yet prepared to accept that we might have got there.
I don’t think we are quite there yet but I think we have a very important job – look, we are - we are the only party, consistently from 2001, that fought against the European Arrest Warrant. What a superb example that is of how the basic principles of the presumption of innocence before guilt, of Habeas Corpus, about all those things are effectively being overturned, I think – I think this whole area of justice and Home Affairs and the concept of freedom and liberty - that’s something that is key for UKIP but we have to be careful in our choice of language.
There’s also an awful lot of people talking about the principles of common law that I’m seeing on the internet…Yes… well, I think that’s right and I think – you know, the principles of common law are something that people on the street understand without knowing they understand it – because it’s a cultural thing. It’s what they’ve been brought up with and when you introduce… I mean, the way the Greeks and the Spaniards, I mean, guh!, you know, to think – to think that we can be extradited to countries like that - not to mention… – but you see, the point is, America, we can renegotiate the treaty. What did Clegg say in PMQ’s? We’re going to review the European Arrest Warrant? So what you gonna do, old son? Walk into a room with twenty-six other countries and say ‘excuse me, we’d like this on the agenda’ to be told either ‘it is not on the agenda’ or even if it is, no-one wants to discuss it.
I mean it gets to the heart of whether we’re able, you know, to forge our own laws, and – and – and to run our own affairs. And so I think, yeah – justice and Home Affairs will be, I think has to be a very big issue for us and I would particularly, you know, compliment William Dartmouth for going over to Hungary and getting those lads back. Brilliant! That’s the sort of thing UKIP MEPs should be doing.
Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you would like people who are considering your candidacy for leadership to know?I want them to know that I am coming back into this to give political leadership. I will not be bogged down. I have got – when I announce who the new Chief Executive is, who the new Party Secretary is, who the Head of Youth Development is – you will see people with proven experience in those fields. Not enthusiastic amateurs that want to help; but people who have actually delivered and - and what we will do, is we will take this party forward, we will adopt professional sales and marketing techniques, this party will grow. We will start with winning council seats and we’re already taking some, and I’m speaking about all these things with a great deal more confidence than I was four years ago.
When I took it over four years ago, I was deeply intimidated by what I faced. I think we now have an amazing opportunity. There is a vacuum out there. You know… We know that Labour have betrayed patriotic old Labour. We know that the Lib Dems are gradually being sussed out. And if you’re one of the millions of eurosceptic conservatives out there, you no longer have a party to vote for. So there are some big opportunities and I think I can really take this forwards.
Last question – the results of the leadership ballot will be announced on November 5th…Delicious!
Would you like to comment on the significance of that date?Delicious! Absolutely delicious! Well, it’s what Jimmy Goldsmith said wasn’t it? - the last decent bloke to enter Parliament was Guy Fawkes but yeah – I think it’s wonderful and I think it’s very important that we announce the result in a suitable venue…
The Talking Clock didn’t pry further. We like a surprise…TOMORROW: The Talking Clock interviews David Campbell Bannerman.We would like to thank our very special UKIP contact for helping to make this possible. We won't embarrass them by naming them - they know who they are. Thank you!