Debate on Parliamentary Sovereignty vs. Prisoner Votes

Just going through the pre-official Hansard record on the debate.

Will return to the topic tomorrow when the approved final Hansard comes out, but thought we'd pick out some key debates and points from the record.

This is a heavily condensed highlights summary. Do read as much as you are able.

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Bernard Jenkin MP: "Geoffrey Robertson, QC, who is no slouch on human rights and is currently representing Julian Assange, explained in the article, “Why We Need a British Bill of Rights”:

“The European Convention also failed to include the rights Parliament won by the ‘Glorious Revolution’ in 1689”.

He went on to state:

“There is mounting evidence that the weasel words of the European Convention are damaging other basic British rights.”

He also stated:

“The Convention is in some respects out of date.”

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with those words? How are we going to address those problems?

The Talking Clock notes: the article referred to by Mr. Jenkin by Geoffrey Robertson can be found here.

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Jack Straw MP: "There is a wider issue—a rabbit hole I do not intend to go down if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me—about whether we should have a written statement of our key constitutional rights. I think that we should, and that the sovereignty of Parliament should be right at the top of it."

The Talking Clock notes: That's a fine thing to say, Mr. Straw. However, your Parliamentary voting record leads us to ask whether your are completely clueless or simply a hypocrite. As a rampant europhile, how do you have the brass neck to stand up in the House of Commons and talk about the sovereignty of Parliament? Isn't it you and people like you who destroyed Parliamentary sovereignty in the first place?

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Jack Straw MP: "Through the decision in the Hirst case and some similar decisions, the Strasbourg Court is setting itself up as a supreme court for Europe, with an ever-widening remit. That is why the tension that I mentioned now threatens to become a collision."

The Talking Clock notes: A jurisdiction which the British people have never been consulted on, told about, or consented to. So, where is our referendum? There is already a gathering storm... we, the people vs. you the politicians and the European Union lies as one of the cancers behind a lot of the hostility some of us are feeling towards Parliament at Westminster.

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Jack Straw MP: "By extending its remit into areas way beyond any original conception of fundamental human rights, the Court in Strasbourg is undermining its own legitimacy and its potential effectiveness in respect of the purposes for which it was established. In other words, the Court and the Council of Europe would have greater success if they reined in their unnecessary excursions into members states’ policy."

The Talking Clock notes: Regrets, I've had a few but then again, too few to mention. But with those regrets expressed - albeit in terms of an observation - we're sure you will not object to the United Kingdom Independence Party and the EU Referendum Campaign picking up on that observation, will you?

Meanwhile, will you accept that the Frankenstein's monster that you and your ilk have created needs to be slain else we should act to keep said monster off British shores?

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Gary Streeter MP: "This matter is not really about whether prisoners in this country have the right to vote, but about whether this House has the right to make its own laws for its own people."

The Talking Clock notes: Absolutely agree. And we know the answer. The House does not have the right to make its own laws for its own people, without exposing the British taxpayer to vast fines and penalties which the British government - on our behalf - always hands over.

There can be only one solution, and that is to withdraw from the European Union.

Sure, the European Court of Human Rights is not the same thing as the European Union.

But as we're being principled about the matter of Parliamentary sovereignty, such a concept is not compatible with our membership of the European Union and we must - must - leave.

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Andrew Bridgen MP: "Is it not clear from previous speakers that the Strasbourg Court is seeking to extend its power? Is it not the duty of hon. Members to resist that power grab?"

The Talking Clock notes: What... before committing further acts of treason against the nation state and it's people, you mean? Anyway, couldn't agree more.

So, about that withdrawal from the European Union...

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Gary Streeter MP: "The rights taken on itself by the ECHR is the clearest case of mission creep that we will ever see. It is the ECHR’s decision to award itself more power—much more power than the authors of the convention ever intended—that we must challenge today. That decision has led to a steady trickle of judgments and pronouncements over the past 30 years that have frequently left the British public baffled and extremely angry.

That is the real problem with the ECHR conducting itself in that way. Yet again, it has undermined the authority of this House, which leaves us wringing our hands hopelessly on the sidelines, and widens the gap between the electorate and their Parliament. If we, the people whom they send here on their behalf, cannot change things, what is the point of us being here, and therefore, what is the point of them voting?"

The Talking Clock notes: Possibly one of the best passages from any political speech or writing that we have encountered in a long while. Hits all the spots, completely on the head.

That said, keep up the speeches of this nature and vote in line with your words... we're sure you'll get to earn the non-partisan support and respect from patriots such as is enjoyed by your colleague, Douglas Carswell, English hero.

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Gary Streeter MP: "In doing so, we will send a clear signal to our constituents that we understand and echo their desire not to put up with this nonsense any longer. We will also send a signal to ECHR judges that we do not appreciate, and will not accept, their attempts to legislate for us here in the United Kingdom. That is our job, not theirs."

The Talking Clock notes: Hallelujah! Brilliant! Except that the European Court of Human Rights has actually protected the British people from the tyranny which is known as the Labour Party.

So, may we just do this to your speech?

..we will send a clear signal to our constituents that we understand and echo their desire not to put up with this nonsense any longer. We will also send a signal to the European Union that we do not appreciate, and will not accept, their attempts to legislate for us here in the United Kingdom. That is our job, not theirs.

There. Put that on record and do something about it. Then, long after you're gone, you will stand forever enshrined in bronze on a plinth outside the Houses of Parliament...

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Ben Gummer MP: "I am slightly worried by what my right hon. and learned Friend [Attorney General Dominic Grieve] said earlier about the purpose of this debate. Surely the purpose of this Chamber hitherto has been to form statute law. He suggests that we should now take on the function of influencing the jurisprudential evolution of the European Court of Human Rights."

The Talking Clock notes: Thank goodness for the reminder. The Attorney General is as dull as hell, and my boredom was making me submit to following the red herring rather than pursuing the prize haddock.

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Ian Davidson MP: "Does the Attorney-General accept that, in being a lawyer, he has the problem of over-complicating matters? [Laughter.] Is not the basic issue whether we in this country should decide our line on whether prisoners should be able to vote—or should it be decided by somebody else? Where do the Government stand on that question?"

The Talking Clock notes: Voting records show that 90% of supposedly eurosceptic Conservative Party MPs are traitorous europhiles. Voting records also show - in our view - that the Liberal Democrats are worse and Labour worse still.

...but none of them are as bad as Quisling Nick Clegg, former EU employee.

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Chris Bryant MP: "I will not, however, be joining any wholesale attack on the European Court of Human Rights. I lived in Spain under Franco..."

The Talking Clock notes: And I lived in Britain under New Labour...

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Chris Bryant MP: "We firmly contend that the 1688 Bill of Rights was right to assert that proceedings in Parliament cannot be

“impeached or questioned in any Court or Place”.

The Talking Clock notes: Look everyone... what this blog has been saying since we first went online is factually accurate, in the Hansard record, and admitted as being a written document. Now then, about some of the points contained elsewhere in our WRITTEN constitution. How about:

"And I do declare that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate hath or ought to have any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm."

Not compatible with European Union membership, is it? So, our signature of the European Communities Act and every following treaty is duly null and void. Case closed.

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Simon Hughes MP: "...what does the hon. Gentleman say about the fact that in most other countries that subscribe to the Council of Europe the same view is not taken and the right to vote is given to some prisoners? What is the difference between the British culture and the rest of Europe that means that people just a few miles away have such very different views?

Michael McCann MP: Because we are different. Northern Europeans’ view of life can be somewhat different to that of southern Europeans. They are entitled to their point of view, as are we; as Members of this House, we are entitled to take decisions on these matters.

The Talking Clock notes: A Labour MP putting on record one of the many views and reasons often expressed by those of us who argue for British withdrawal from the European Union? There's interesting...

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Karen Bradley MP: "I was elected to be the voice of my constituents in this place..."

The Talking Clock notes: At least one or two of you recognise that. So, when do we get our referendum?

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Yasmin Qureshi MP: "Many years ago, we abolished the death penalty, bar for two offences: high treason and burning Her Majesty’s shipyard. A few years ago, a Labour Government abolished the death penalty even for those offences. Why did they do that?"

The Talking Clock notes: ...because David Miliband and Gordon Brown were about to sign the Lisbon Treaty, perhaps?

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Jeremy Corbyn MP: "Those who say that our House of Commons is a completely sovereign body and can do whatever it wishes are frankly wrong. Every time a country signs up to a treaty in any sphere of influence or activity, it removes some of its own sovereignty."

The Talking Clock notes: And during the signing of which European Union treaty was that fact admitted to the British public? But thank you for putting the great deception on record.

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Rehman Chisti MP: "I start my comments in light of the doctrine of the supremacy of Parliament, as set out in Hood Phillips’s “Constitutional and Administrative Law”. As paragraph 3.13 clearly states:

“The legislative supremacy of Parliament means that Parliament (The Queen, Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled) can pass law on any topic affecting any persons, and that there are no fundamental laws which Parliament cannot amend or repeal.”

The Talking Clock notes: Great. Then let Parliament repeal the Act which the traitor Heath (Conservative) introduced in 1972.

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Rehman Chishti MP: "Parliament’s supremacy has been challenged by the European Court of Human Rights. That cannot be right. It cannot be right for judges from developing judiciaries in eastern European countries to challenge the supremacy of our Parliament and our judiciary."

The Talking Clock notes: Nor can unelected people in Brussels do those things. So stop them. Withdraw from the European Union. Now.

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Claire Perry MP: "I confess that in preparing for this speech, I was rather torn. I spoke strongly against the first part of the motion about 15 days ago at the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, and the reaction was like sitting on a whoopee cushion in church. Apparently, the Court has never been criticised on the Floor of the Council. It is simply not done. So to stand up and say that we think the Court is encroaching on matters that should properly be taken as part of sovereign concerns was considered to be a small international incident. I was rather proud of that."

The Talking Clock notes: Good for you! Of course, as supporters of UKIP, we're used to hearing Nigel Farage speaking up for Britain. Which leads us into a photograph which appeared in the Daily Express of a damp rag and a clapped out bank clerk. But which is which?

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Andrew Bridgen MP: Is not the crux of the argument that by supporting the motion this afternoon, we are not seeking to extend the powers of this Parliament but resisting the extension of the powers of the Strasbourg court, an unelected European body that has little respect for or makes little acknowledgment of the great and enviable democratic history of this place?

The Talking Clock says: By Jove, he gets it. So, about British withdrawal of the European Union...

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Simon Reevell MP: "There are too many examples to mention of necessary and welcome ECHR intervention."

The Talking Clock says: New Labour's tyranny against the people, for example?

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Andrew Bridgen: Does my hon. Friend agree that we have been assured, and often reassured, in the House that we are a sovereign Parliament? Will he join me in urging all right hon. and hon. Members to act like a sovereign Parliament on this issue, and to represent the views of our constituents and resist those of an unelected European body that is seeking to push itself further into domestic UK affairs?

Martin Vickers: I agree entirely. I, too, thought I was being elected to a sovereign body, but as the weeks go by I am beginning to have more doubts than I had six or eight months ago.

The Talking Clock notes: Then, for the love of England, do something about it, guys! Withdraw! Withdraw, withdraw, withdraw!

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Nick Boles MP: "Good judges are good because they are products of the society within which those laws are created and to which those laws are applied. Judges earn legitimacy to make judgments, tough as they may be. Because they are part of that society, they understand it—they are part of the warp and weft of it.

My fear is that the Strasbourg Court can never be that. [...]

I hope that the debate will be one small step along the way to us saying to the Strasbourg Court: “Back in your box! Your role is to bring to our attention—this Parliament’s attention—when you believe that our laws are out of kilter with the convention. But that is your role and no further. The specific questions of how the laws that we make apply to individual cases and citizens in this country should be for British judges in a British court.” In that way, we would have a law that we could all respect.

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Ian Davidson MP: "There is a Brussels mindset, irrespective of where it is physically located, that basically says that European is best and that there is a political elite in Europe that knows better than we do in this country how our country should be run. We have to say, “Up with this we will not put.” Enough is enough. In these circumstances, we ought to be saying that we wish to repatriate these powers, if they need to be repatriated, and if it is a question of ceasing or stamping on judicial activism by the European Court, that is what we need to do."

The Talking Clock notes: ...and withdrawing from the European Union.

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Brian Binley MP: "In the time left to me, I want to urge the Minister and the Prime Minister to recognise the dangers of such a judgment, not only for the European Court of Human Rights but for the whole concept of the European Union. European institutions continue to enlarge their own areas of decision making at the expense of sovereign Parliaments. If that continues, the institutions themselves will be at risk. The Government need to recognise that fact; more importantly, so do the European institutions. As we saw in eastern Europe and as we are seeing in north African states such as Egypt and in states all over the world, the people will be listened to in the end. That needs to be taken into account both by this Government and by the wider European institutions; they would do well to take heed of that."

The Talking Clock notes: Too late for all that. Agree entirely, but we have decided. Out! Out of the European Union! Out of it now!

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Priti Patel MP: "I was not sent to the House by the voters of Witham slavishly to nod through laws and accept every diktat that comes from Europe or the Strasbourg Court. I was elected to this House to defend the national interest, to support my constituents and to hold law-makers to account. It would be a great disservice to the British people if we were to say that the authority of this House and this Parliament is now so denuded, so irrelevant, that we are powerless to act, stand up, speak out and do the right thing in this Chamber. This is a democratic and sovereign Parliament, which has done more to promote democracy and the rule of law than any other. We should not be forced to bow down on this issue, and I urge all hon. Members to put Britain and the law-abiding majority of this country first by sending a clear and unequivocal message to Europe by supporting the motion."

The Talking Clock notes: You know what I'm going to say, don't you? Withdraw! Out! Now! Etcetera...

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Bob Blackman MP: "We have had an excellent debate. Indeed, it has shown the House at its best: the opportunity to debate the issues of the day, without being whipped on how we vote at the end."

The Talking Clock notes: And there's another problem with our democracy that needs to be stamped on and stopped - the whip system. It is the exact opposite of everything about 'representation of the people'.

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Bob Blackman MP: "I ask the Attorney-General and the Government to take note of all the suggestions that we have put as Members of the House of Commons and come forward with simple legislation that we can all endorse and support. That will send a strong message to the people who would subvert our democracy and try to prevent our Parliament from being sovereign. It will tell them that that is our answer, and that it is clear and unambiguous, once and for all."

The Talking Clock notes: You tell 'em! Now, about that referendum that the overwhelming majority of British people demand, and that withdrawal which would follow...

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Richard Drax MP: "As one of the oldest democracies on Earth, I think we can be trusted to look after our citizens."

The Talking Clock notes: Unless the British people sink to voting for the tyrannical, freedom-hating Labour Party again.

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Dominic Raab MP: "The fact is that we face a serious abuse of power—there is no other word for it. I therefore want to put this question to the House: how perverse would a Strasbourg ruling have to be before we, as British lawmakers, stood up for the national interest and our prerogatives as democratic lawmakers? If not now, on prisoner voting, when? I make this prediction: if we do not hold the line here, today, there will be worse to come—far worse—in the years ahead. [...]

It is time that we drew a line in the sand and sent this very clear message back: this House will decide whether prisoners get the vote, and this House makes the laws of the land, because this House is accountable to the British people.

The Talking Clock says: You know, it's such a shame that most of the people who have been quoted from this debate haven't yet done what the British people demand... we want a referendum on withdrawal from the European Union which no British Government, under our constitution, had the right to sign up to in the first place. Not without the consent of the people, not without a defeat at war.

The people of Britain have given and suffered neither.